Ping Paula: Tara's New Additions

scfundogs

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May 5, 2006, 12:02:36 PM5/5/06

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"Paula" <mmmtob...@earthlink.ent> wrote in message
news:3cpl52tjeju3ce4oh...@4ax.com...
>
> One of your pups? I have been out of the loop! Details, please!

Ahh, yes, my demons. Instead of one Cocker puppy we got two. Before anyone
sucks their breath in so hard as to collapse a lung its worked out extremely
well. One pup is mine, as a handler, and the other is Amie's.

They'll be 7 months tomorrow, have completed a basic obedience class, earned
one CGC title, are starting to wrap up beginner's agility classes, have a
working tracking seminar to attend in June and we're attending a training
day & hunt test tomorrow.

I've kept them extremely busy but we've had so much fun. Indy, the girl, is
lightning fast, stubborn as the day is long, independent and very smart.
She doesn't like to be trained or commanded and almost always finds her own
way to accomplish tasks.

Buoy, the boy, is a rough & tumble but utterly obedient little man who is
all about precision and being directed. He got his CGC at 6 months and Indy
only missed hers by one station which was actually something debatable.
Regardless, she is retaking her CGC in 2 weeks and has been trained &
handled entirely by 10yo Amie.

Indy has a natural casting motion when walking, high prey drive and she's
very drivey in general. She likes agility but doesn't like being moderated
overmuch. Where Buoy naturally tracks (just day-to-day stuff, not anything
formal yet) she naturally critters.

I really want to see Indy do hunt tests and now that I've finally found some
people near me, and a pro trainer I hope to solicit for mentoring, that
seems a very real possibility. They're pointer folks and the trainer is a
retriever specialist but now I at least know I can get birds and start her
hunt test training. I'd all but given up hope of finding people/birds/land.

As much as I don't like the rigidity of competitive obedience I really think
Buoy is made for it so I'm planning to dabble in it and Rally later with him
but start the tracking soon. Agility will be an ongoing thing and we've
already got some equipment for the backyard as you'll see in the pics.

Amie really shines with Indy and as tough a nut as Indy is she actually only
works well with Amie. She recognizes my 10yo as her handler and while she
respects our authority around the house when it comes to training she
doesn't respond to me or Scott as well. They're an excellent team and,
thankfully, Buoy and I were made for each other.

Scott is working with Fancy (and he's also really excited to get back to the
field and wants to work with Indy) so now we all have a dog to walk, train &
play with. I'm hoping to put a CGC on Fancy in the fall so that I can ILP
and try agility with her. She likes it in the yard and went nuts watching
some BCs run at a USDAA trial but she doesn't have the off-leash recall and
basic obedience to do agility yet.

Here are LOTS of pictures, organized into albums/sets by age, if you're
interested. By the way, if they look funny, its because I'm their groomer.
I learned as I went but I am intentionally keeping them in puppy cuts.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/26372017@N00/sets/

--
Tara

Christy

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May 5, 2006, 1:58:22 PM5/5/06

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"scfundogs" <scfu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4c1b8dF...@individual.net...

> Here are LOTS of pictures, organized into albums/sets by age, if you're
> interested. By the way, if they look funny, its because I'm their
> groomer. I learned as I went but I am intentionally keeping them in puppy
> cuts.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/26372017@N00/sets/

Tara, they are insanely cute. But what in the world are you doing with 7
month old puppies on those jumps and weaves? Puppies shouldn't be jumping
full height or seeing a set of straight weave poles until they are a year,
or x-rayed for growth plate closure. I'm hoping that was just done for the
cute pictures and isn't done on a regular basis.

Christy

MauiJNP

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May 5, 2006, 2:04:03 PM5/5/06

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>
> Here are LOTS of pictures, organized into albums/sets by age, if you're
> interested. By the way, if they look funny, its because I'm their
> groomer. I learned as I went but I am intentionally keeping them in puppy
> cuts.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/26372017@N00/sets/
>

Very cute pictures! Sounds like everyone is having fun with them.

PS: I see the agility stuff you were talking about before. It all looks
great. I ordered that book so hopefully I can get working on that soon.
Thanks for the recommendation.

scfundogs

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May 5, 2006, 2:21:48 PM5/5/06

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"Christy" <easily...@gtenospam.net> wrote in message
news:2nM6g.47$W83.20@trnddc07...

>
> Tara, they are insanely cute. But what in the world are you doing with 7
> month old puppies on those jumps and weaves? Puppies shouldn't be jumping
> full height or seeing a set of straight weave poles until they are a year,
> or x-rayed for growth plate closure. I'm hoping that was just done for the
> cute pictures and isn't done on a regular basis.

I made the decision to begin their agility training after speaking with alot
of people, the folks at the local club, my breeder and by what I see in my
dogs. The pups have *always* been jumping and obstacle fiends, I've just
given them specific things to maneuver over/around and get rewarded for.

As for jumps, I started them at 8", given that they're 13-1/2" at withers
but they avoided or walked over that height. They were sucked towards 12"
jumps in class every time.

They were only intro'd to weaves last week and aren't doing any bodily
bending. They can walk through diagonally then turn and walk through the
other side as they're small dogs and currently walk, via several steps,
through each weave vs running/jumping and bending through them.

I know there are alot of people who won't start a dog under the age of 1
year on jumps or weaves and I understand that, especially if its a breed of
medium or large size. I choose to start my pups now, with fun & games,
light training and utilitize skills (obstacle jumping) they already have and
employ on their own. I hope you'll agree to disagree with my choice.

--
Tara

Christy

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May 5, 2006, 2:30:16 PM5/5/06

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"scfundogs" <scfu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:4c1jddF...@individual.net...

> I know there are alot of people who won't start a dog under the age of 1
> year on jumps or weaves and I understand that, especially if its a breed
> of medium or large size. I choose to start my pups now, with fun & games,
> light training and utilitize skills (obstacle jumping) they already have
> and employ on their own. I hope you'll agree to disagree with my choice.

Well, Tara, if you've made that decision knowing full well the risks, best
of luck to you.

Christy

Paula

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May 5, 2006, 4:03:08 PM5/5/06

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On Fri, 5 May 2006 12:02:36 -0400, "scfundogs" <scfu...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Here are LOTS of pictures, organized into albums/sets by age, if you're
>interested. By the way, if they look funny, its because I'm their groomer.
>I learned as I went but I am intentionally keeping them in puppy cuts.
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/26372017@N00/sets/

Now I am convinced that I am going to have to get a cocker spaniel
some day just to watch its ears fly up when it jumps! :)

I wouldn't go ballistic on you for getting two pups at once. You know
what the downsides are and have taken care of individual training and
attention and human-dog interaction time. I might think you are
personally crazy for wanting two puppies in the house at once, but the
dogs seem to be taken care of even if the people are obviously insane.
I remember you wondering about the various plans the various people in
your household had for your new puppy. From that standpoint, two pups
makes a lot of sense as well. I say, good for all of you even though
I still would not recommend two puppies to the people I have seen
posting about that on this newsgroup in general. Unless they want to
put all the time and energy and thought into it that you have, of
course.

It has been a fantastic experience for my kids to each have their own
dog. I can imagine Amie is in heaven. My ten year old and her best
friend set up an obstacle course in my backyard with this and that one
weekend and ran Sammie around it just for fun. They had a blast. If
I could find agility classes around here, I would sign up in a
heartbeat. I think both dog and kids would love it.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

scfundogs

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May 5, 2006, 4:45:52 PM5/5/06

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"Paula" <mmmtob...@earthlink.ent> wrote in message

news:3cbn52hjmo9buok11...@4ax.com...

>
> Now I am convinced that I am going to have to get a cocker spaniel
> some day just to watch its ears fly up when it jumps! :)

Ha! I think they were born to jump because its close to an obsession with
them. All furniture, including tables, are nothing but things to be jumped
on and/or used as launching pads. They've never understood the concept of
staying off tables and Indy is very catlike. It won't be long before she's
able to leap to the kitchen counters. As it is she perches in window sills
to watch the birds and other goings-on in the neighborhood.

> I wouldn't go ballistic on you for getting two pups at once. You know
> what the downsides are and have taken care of individual training and
> attention and human-dog interaction time.

Yep, I did know all of that and even well-armed with knowledge it was still
alot of work. I don't know how breeders successfully keep one or more
puppies from a litter they bred when they already have other dogs around and
in training. Then there are the single people running 7 dogs in agility and
it makes you wonder how they have quality time for each dog individually.

I never would have considered it if Amie and Scott weren't here and wanting
to be active in the raising of the dogs. And, as you pointed out, with all
the things we wanted to try our hand at this worked out well. The dogs are
like night and day and agility will probably be the only thing they share
and enjoy together...other than tag-teaming and treating Fancy as an
obstacle to be conquered.

> I say, good for all of you even though
> I still would not recommend two puppies to the people I have seen
> posting about that on this newsgroup in general.

I wouldn't do it again but then I don't really want to do the puppy thing in
general. I adore these two little pups and we've all been amazed at the
experience of watching them mature and discover new things. Still, it was
alot of work for the first 3 months and an endeavor that required full
household cooperation & participation.

Its not as much work in developing their personalities separately of each
other at this point because I think we've been very successful there. That
success and the fact that they're very different dogs now requires alot of
time & effort spent doing different things suited to each dog. Luckily for
all involved this is good news rather than bad.

> It has been a fantastic experience for my kids to each have their own
> dog. I can imagine Amie is in heaven.

She is now. She wasn't terribly keen on the obedience training part but she
sucked it up and trained her pup. She found it boring but then so did Indy.
She had the puppy who didn't like being told what to do and who absolutley
didn't like doing things the way she was shown to do them. She'd still
accomplish the goal but she'd take a different route to getting there.

> If
> I could find agility classes around here, I would sign up in a
> heartbeat. I think both dog and kids would love it.

We like ours. Its alot of time standing around and just getting one or two
passes at something (one hour a week) but then they are pretty big classes.
They were surprised at the number of people who signed up and even more
surprised at the number that actually showed. They ended up having to split
the class into back-to-back classes just to accomodate all the people.

The other nice thing is that there's a 12yo who runs her cocker in agility
and has earned several titles to date. She's one of the beginner's class
instructors. That's inspiration for Amie (and the adults too). For the
summer we're probably just going to practice various handling skills with
mini equipment at home and focus more on hunt test training with Indy and
tracking & obedience with Buoy. The tracking may be on hold due to the heat
of our summers but we're still signed up for the working seminar in June so
that should be alot of fun.

--
Tara

scfundogs

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May 5, 2006, 4:58:09 PM5/5/06

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MauiJNP" <jmh...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:vrecnXA1_tE...@ptd.net...

>
> Very cute pictures! Sounds like everyone is having fun with them.

Thanks and, yes, they are tons of fun. They're also very good at causing
premature graying.

> PS: I see the agility stuff you were talking about before. It all looks
> great. I ordered that book so hopefully I can get working on that soon.
> Thanks for the recommendation.

You're welcome. What I like about the weave poles is that I can stake them
at any angle like a weave-a-matic or stake them as channel weaves. I like
the slanted method the best so far but then I've only tried a handful
walk-thrus.

--
Tara

Robin Nuttall

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May 5, 2006, 11:28:13 PM5/5/06

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scfundogs wrote:
> "Christy" <easily...@gtenospam.net> wrote in message
> news:2nM6g.47$W83.20@trnddc07...

> I made the decision to begin their agility training after speaking with alot

> of people, the folks at the local club, my breeder and by what I see in my
> dogs. The pups have *always* been jumping and obstacle fiends, I've just
> given them specific things to maneuver over/around and get rewarded for.

There are many, many things you can do with puppies in agility without
jumping them. Targeting, contacts, directionals, side changes, contact
behaviors, fast sits, wobbly boards, the list goes on and on.

>
> As for jumps, I started them at 8", given that they're 13-1/2" at withers
> but they avoided or walked over that height. They were sucked towards 12"
> jumps in class every time.

Sorry, but for me that is not a reason to be jumping babies, especially
what look to be fairly plump babies. Dogs want to do all kinds of things
that have long-term poor repurcussions. Repetitive jumping on unclosed
growth plates is one of those things. And frankly, I don't know a single
responsible agility instructor who would allow this.

>
> They were only intro'd to weaves last week and aren't doing any bodily
> bending. They can walk through diagonally then turn and walk through the
> other side as they're small dogs and currently walk, via several steps,
> through each weave vs running/jumping and bending through them.

But honestly, that's not what you want to teach. You don't want to teach
them to walk through diagonally. That's a recipe for long-term slowness.
You want them to learn to RUN through weaves and be as direct as
possible in their path--which means spine bending, which means they
shouldn't be doing it now. Teaching weaves by walking gives the dog a
foundation of slow and careful. Dogs revert to their foundations when
under stress, such as at trials.

>
> I know there are alot of people who won't start a dog under the age of 1
> year on jumps or weaves and I understand that, especially if its a breed of
> medium or large size. I choose to start my pups now, with fun & games,
> light training and utilitize skills (obstacle jumping) they already have and
> employ on their own. I hope you'll agree to disagree with my choice.

Yes, I do. As I said above, there are a TON of things you could be doing
to teach these dogs great agility skills without risking their long-term
structural integrity. What's the hurry? There's so much you can do
without asking them to jump and weave...

Rocky

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May 5, 2006, 11:43:28 PM5/5/06

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"scfundogs" <scfu...@yahoo.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I made the decision to begin their agility training after
> speaking with alot of people, the folks at the local club,
> my breeder and by what I see in my dogs. The pups have
> *always* been jumping and obstacle fiends, I've just given
> them specific things to maneuver over/around and get
> rewarded for.

As Rocky's breeder said, "How do you stop an Aussie from
jumping?" The answer, of course, is that you don't, but
repetitive exercises of all sorts are best left until they're
older.

A puppy jumps on and off the couch how many times during the
day? Certain not as often as in one short agility jump training
session.

> As for jumps, I started them at 8", given that they're
> 13-1/2" at withers but they avoided or walked over that
> height. They were sucked towards 12" jumps in class every
> time.

Too high.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Christy

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May 6, 2006, 1:48:31 AM5/6/06

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"Robin Nuttall" <rob...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:hJU6g.959727$xm3.25605@attbi_s21...

> But honestly, that's not what you want to teach. You don't want to teach
> them to walk through diagonally. That's a recipe for long-term slowness.
> You want them to learn to RUN through weaves and be as direct as possible
> in their path--which means spine bending, which means they shouldn't be
> doing it now. Teaching weaves by walking gives the dog a foundation of
> slow and careful. Dogs revert to their foundations when under stress, such
> as at trials.

I can give you a prime example of this - my sheltie Bodhi, who was the first
dog I trained for agility. He was trained on weaves in the lure with food
method, a very slow and methodical way. Though he learned to perform the
weaves very quickly, that performance was reserved for home and class, where
he felt very secure - as soon as we were at a trial, where he had no
confidence, he reverted to that slow, methodical weaving. It could take 7-10
seconds to get through a set of 12 poles, which is painfully slow,
especially when jumpers course times were usually 38-42 seconds total.

> Yes, I do. As I said above, there are a TON of things you could be doing
> to teach these dogs great agility skills without risking their long-term
> structural integrity. What's the hurry? There's so much you can do without
> asking them to jump and weave...

My pup at 11 months has only just seen the channel weaves begin to close up.
She's been doing them for the last few months completely spread, learning to
run through them as fast as possible with no bending of the spine. She's the
first dog I've used spread weaves to train and so far I like it. Wylie has
decent weaves, usually under 3 seconds for a set of 12, but that isn't the
lightning speed that some dogs can manage (fast enough for me to not need to
retrain, though!) I'm not sure if she will be faster (she's considerably
smaller) but I definitely wouldn't want to teach her any method that slowed
her down as she's a funny and stubborn pup and needs to be reinforced for
speed as much as possible.
Besides the weaves, she knows left/right, sit, down, stand, backup, wait
(working on that around agility equipment, though) and target, has seen all
the contacts at low heights and is learning 2 on 2 off, and so on. She won't
be jumping full height until at least 14 months, possibly longer, and won't
be entered in a trial until she is performing all obstacles at full height
and running full courses - let's say another year to year and a half. I
fully expect to see last season's crop of puppies start agility long before
her, but I've resolved not to hurry and make the same mistakes with this pup
that it took me a full year to retrain with the last one! I have a feeling
Tara has been bitten by the agility bug and wants to go, go, go - I know the
feeling. Hopefully it works out OK for her and her pups but I wouldn't be
suprised if she's got a new pup in a few years and she's looking back saying
"I won't hurry this one!"

Christy

scfundogs

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May 6, 2006, 6:04:42 AM5/6/06

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"Christy" <easily...@gtenospam.net> wrote in message

news:PMW6g.1290$IL2.201@trnddc04...

>
> Tara has been bitten by the agility bug and wants to go, go, go - I know
> the feeling. Hopefully it works out OK for her and her pups but I wouldn't
> be suprised if she's got a new pup in a few years and she's looking back
> saying "I won't hurry this one!"

I think everyone in this thread has jumped to some pretty strong and wrong
conclusions.

*I* know what my dogs are ready for as I'm the one that has raised and
worked with them. I also don't ask more than they are already giving on
their own.

Our training sessions last 5 minutes because we are in training for other
things and that's enough time to keep it fun without it becoming work. In 5
minutes we practice start line motivation, hand touching, wait, go, out,
backup and then the two jumps and set of weaves are the finale of play.

The dogs have only just been intro'd to the weave poles. I chose to do so
now because they're not so big as to be having to bend and because weaving
is usually the hardest to learn for dogs I decided to give them long
exposure to them. Having them and doing a few walk-thrus does constitute
serious or intense training.

The puppies have been jumpers since they arrived. They jump on/off/over
anything and everything and enjoy doing so. They jump off the furniture and
deck which is double the height of the two conditioning poles and over Fancy
which is even more. To answer Robin's question here, yes, they do this many
more times a day than what I would ask them to do in a quick backyard
training session.

I am not jumping them for 5-10 minutes a day, several times a day, or even
everyday. It is a fun thing to do with a skill they already utilize heavily
and I don't feel this is intense or damaging as its done in moderation, with
something they enjoy, and short of putting tape on their feet its something
they are going to do regardless.

Having also stated the other things we're working with the puppies on I
think your characterization of me having caught the bug and have to go-go-go
is unfair. If that were the case then tracking, hunt tests and obedience
wouldn't even be a thought right now let alone something we have already
slated for the spring/summer/fall with agility being an ongoing but not
focus sport.

--
Tara

Robin Nuttall

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May 6, 2006, 8:28:22 AM5/6/06

to

scfundogs wrote:

> I think everyone in this thread has jumped to some pretty strong and wrong
> conclusions.

I'm sorry Tara, I don't think so.

>
> *I* know what my dogs are ready for as I'm the one that has raised and
> worked with them. I also don't ask more than they are already giving on
> their own.

You are obviously ignoring information by some top orthopedic experts
such as Chris Zink and Suzanne Clothier, who say no repetitive
jumping--no jumps--until the growth plates have closed. Especially with
chubby dogs, and your puppies are chubby. Whether or not *they* think
they are ready is totally immaterial to whether or not you should allow
a behavior. You wouldn't let your dog drive a car at age 8 regardless of
whether or not she felt she could do it...

>
> The dogs have only just been intro'd to the weave poles. I chose to do so
> now because they're not so big as to be having to bend and because weaving
> is usually the hardest to learn for dogs I decided to give them long
> exposure to them. Having them and doing a few walk-thrus does constitute
> serious or intense training.

But it's still laying the foundation for future frustration and
slowness. Unfortunately you are teaching them the wrong way. Walking
dogs through weaves is not a good foundation. Some other things I've
noticed is that teaching puppies to weave that then change in size is a
big problem--they learn to leave at their puppy size then have real
pacing and footwork issues at their adult size.

You can actually start imprinting weaves now, but the way to do it is to
get the channel all the way open and teach them to run full speed down
the middle. Do not.not.not walk them diagonally through inline weaves if
you want good weaving dogs later on.

>
> The puppies have been jumpers since they arrived. They jump on/off/over
> anything and everything and enjoy doing so. They jump off the furniture and
> deck which is double the height of the two conditioning poles and over Fancy
> which is even more. To answer Robin's question here, yes, they do this many
> more times a day than what I would ask them to do in a quick backyard
> training session.

An occasional jump off of furniture is not a biggie, though frankly I
discourage it in puppies. I prefer to control that. And I just don't see
any need to introduce jumping that early. They can learn body awareness
by running around on the flat.

> Having also stated the other things we're working with the puppies on I
> think your characterization of me having caught the bug and have to go-go-go
> is unfair. If that were the case then tracking, hunt tests and obedience
> wouldn't even be a thought right now let alone something we have already
> slated for the spring/summer/fall with agility being an ongoing but not
> focus sport.

I think our cautions come from seeing way too many people ruin dogs with
the best of intentions. And here's just another thought for you. Puppies
do indeed seem to be able to endlessly absorb training and information.
They love to do things and learn things, and there's a great temptation
to do a lot of training. It doesn't sound like you're doing that, but I
see it all the time. And what ends up happening is that the puppy, with
tons of promise and attitude and potential, gets pushed too hard, too
fast, too young. And by the time they are 3 or 4 they are stressed out,
bored, and basically just not really that competitive any more. The rest
of their lives their owners struggle with motivation and speed and
stress issues. Where if they had just been patient....

Oh and Zipper is 8 months next week. He knows how to sit and how to play
tug and pounce on a target. Down on command is taking awhile, but he
knows I'm huge fun to play with and that teeters tip and that's fun too.
He's a toy dog and has been his full height for 2 months. I'm not
jumping him yet...and he's only been imprinted on channel weaves.

Robin Nuttall

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May 6, 2006, 9:06:30 AM5/6/06

to

Robin Nuttall wrote:

> scfundogs wrote:
You wouldn't let your dog drive a car at age 8 regardless of

^^^

> whether or not she felt she could do it...

Hah! I meant daughter, not dog!

Christy

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May 6, 2006, 9:15:22 AM5/6/06

to

"scfundogs" <scfu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:4c3al8F...@individual.net...

> I think everyone in this thread has jumped to some pretty strong and wrong
> conclusions.
>
> *I* know what my dogs are ready for as I'm the one that has raised and
> worked with them. I also don't ask more than they are already giving on
> their own.

OK, but both Robin, Matt and I have all trained and trialled multiple dogs
in agility. This doesn't make us experts, at least in my case, but it does
give us a perspective that you just don't have yet. I've seen what happens
to dogs that are pushed too early, resulting in physical and/or mental
issues later in the dog's life. Don't you think that perhaps even though you
know your dogs, you might not know enough to know what is too much too soon?

>
> Our training sessions last 5 minutes because we are in training for other
> things and that's enough time to keep it fun without it becoming work. In
> 5 minutes we practice start line motivation, hand touching, wait, go, out,
> backup and then the two jumps and set of weaves are the finale of play.

That all sounds good, but you can do low jumps and channel weaves, or no
weaves at all yet, and not lose out on anything. So why push it?

>
> The dogs have only just been intro'd to the weave poles. I chose to do so
> now because they're not so big as to be having to bend and because weaving
> is usually the hardest to learn for dogs I decided to give them long
> exposure to them. Having them and doing a few walk-thrus does constitute
> serious or intense training.

No, and it isn't likely to cause problems physically if they are just
slowing walking around the poles. But did you miss what Robin posted, and I
reiterated, about that not being the performance you want to train? Why
start them on poles at all if you start them off in a way that won't benefit
you in the long run? Frankly, I don't think poles are the hardest thing for
a dog to learn - they are the most unnatural, yes, but I found that there
are other things that are harder - contacts, for example, took me way longer
to get a solid performance with my drivey dog.

>
> Having also stated the other things we're working with the puppies on I
> think your characterization of me having caught the bug and have to
> go-go-go is unfair. If that were the case then tracking, hunt tests and
> obedience wouldn't even be a thought right now let alone something we have
> already slated for the spring/summer/fall with agility being an ongoing
> but not focus sport.

I meant overall - you're wanting to go with these pups for all these events.
I'm not saying that it is wrong, but it is a sign of someone who has been
bitten by the bug for dog events. If that is a mischaracterization, my
apologies.

Christy

IfMyFriendsCould...@i-love-dogs.com

unread,

May 6, 2006, 5:21:41 PM5/6/06

to

HOWEDY matty you miserable lyin dog abusing punk thug
coward active acute chronic long term incurable mental
case and illegal doggy day care provider scam artist
and fraud,

Rocky wrote:
> "scfundogs" <scfu...@yahoo.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > I made the decision to begin their agility training after
> > speaking with alot of people, the folks at the local club,

Folks who SELL "dog training lessons".

> > my breeder

tara's ETHICKAL BREEDER who don't PROFIT from BREEDIN.

> > and by what I see in my dogs.

tara o. aka tee aka scfundogs got a VERY LONG POSTED CASE
HISTORY of HURTIN INTIMIDATIN and MURDERIN innocent
defenseless dumb critters an LYIN abHOWET it <{): ~ ( >

> > The pups have *always* been jumping and obstacle fiends,

tara's new puppys are HYPERATIVE and HOWETA CON-TROLL
just like her last dog Jojo *(who's PROBABLY DEAD) and
her DEAD DOGS Summer and Tyson whom SHE MURDERED as a
direct result of her TRAINING EFFORTS <{): ~ ( >

> > I've just given them specific things to
> > maneuver over/ around and get rewarded for.

That's sheer idiocy.

> As Rocky's breeder said, "How do you stop an Aussie from jumping?"

That's EZ. You TRAIN them not to do what they AIN'T
SUPPHOWED to / what you DON'T WANT them to do.

> The answer, of course, is that you don't,

No matty. YOU DON'T on accHOWENT of YOU DON'T KNOW HOWE.

> but repetitive exercises of all sorts are
> best left until they're older.

That's SHEER IDIOCY. Dogs AIN'T HORSES with a rider on their back.

> A puppy jumps on and off the couch
> how many times during the day?

Depends on if you allHOWE them to get up on the C-HOWECH.

> Certain not as often as in one short agility jump training session.

UNLESS you don't allHOWE them on the C-HOWECH.

> > As for jumps, I started them at 8", given that they're
> > 13-1/2" at withers but they avoided or walked over that
> > height. They were sucked towards 12" jumps in class every
> > time.
>
> Too high.

That's SHEER IDIOCY. robin nuttal CRIPPLED TWO of her
EXXXPERTLY TRAINED DOGS despite "waiting" till their
bones was full grown.

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Oh, bye the bye matty, YOU CAN'T POST HERE abHOWETS
nodoGdameneDMOORE. REMEMBER? HERE'S HOWE COME:

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.

>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.

> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-

> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

Sometimes my "voice of god" startles human
and dog, especially when the human didn't
see the inappropriate behaviour. --Matt.
Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.

Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.

It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!

"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss

"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain
And Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation
Of Correction To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish
Him, Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want
To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon, RAAF.

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.

captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

On 6 Feb 2006 17:41:08 GMT, Mary Healey <mhhea...@iastate.edu>,
clicked their heels and said:

> Does that include tone of voice? Some tools are easier
> to ban than others.

yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up! And I
always have to remind spouses that they may NOT do the
"honey - you're supposed to be doing it like THIS"......
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album

lying frosty dahl, oakhill kennels wrote:
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch

You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.

CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.

When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished

If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"

(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.

"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.

terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."

"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.

THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?

Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what would
> > be the point? Where I come from, choking is choking.
> > It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

Deltones wrote:
>
> Rocky wrote:
>
> > "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
>
> > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > > is choking. It's never limited.

Not so in PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING, Deltones.

> > So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> > Thank you for your contribution.

> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Looks like you've pushed the mental cases over the edge again...

> Well, I think you carefully avoided quoting the last part of my post.
> You know the one about a bunch of little Colonel Parker doing Elvis's
> out of their dogs? Oh right, limited choking is not abuse, and pumping
> dogs full of drugs to make them behave ain't either in your world huh?
> For the benefit of our gentle readers, here's the part you forgot to
> quote:
?
> Oh, what the hell. Check out a thread started around Nov 23 called
> "Help with a Nuerotic Hound..." where I wonder if you guys are talking
> about dogs or Woody Allen's pharmacy. I'll stick with praises and noise
> distraction to train my dog, thank you.
>
> ----------

"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...

> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
>
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...

> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.

"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.

"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.

--------------------

"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.

And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.

Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."

Lynn K.

----------------

From: "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
Date: 2 Dec 2005 10:55:41 -0800
Subject: Re: In defense of Jerry Howe's methods

Mary Healey wrote:
> I'm still asking for 5 original posts from people here at least 5
> years to support your initial contention (NOT HURTING DOGS TO TRAIN

THEM). You're 0 for 2, so far.

That's 2 in 2 as far as I'm concerned but hey, if you insist. I'm
really curious to see what will be the justification this time. So far
we have:

Limited choking? Hey, it's limited, As
Neo would say: Woah, there is no choke.

Dogs pumped full of prozac? Hey, they're trippin
man. Remember Woodstock. Euh.... Woodwhat?

E-Collar? I'm sure some of you will come up with: But my
dog look so pretty with an electrified perm. Swoooon.

So on with the fun. Taken from the "Collars" thread,
started by Perry Templeton June 20 2005

Denis
------------

On 26 Jun 2005 10:52:42 -0700, lucyaa...@claque.net, wrote:

> What does the "choke" in the "choke chain" stand for, then?
> Lucy

one reason I call them slip collars. Their is a correction involved,
and while it causes momentary discomfort, does not choke the dog.
OTOH, it is CAPABLE fo being used to do that, should a situation
warrant it.
--
Janet B
----------

And here's another one from the same author,
taken from the same thread.

---------

167. Janet B
Jun 21, 12:03 pm show options
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:40:11 +0100, "Alison"

<Ali...@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk>, wrote:
> I'm just wondering why you had to use choke chains to train"your
> dogs especially as they are so small.

Oh geez - let's see - how many JRTs act like alligators at the end of
a leash? I personally prefer prong collars.

----------

Let's go for the hat trick with the same author, taken from the same
thread:

----------

141. Janet B
Jun 27, 10:01 pm

I don't use choke chains. Not quite true - I use a jeweler's hex link

on Franklin at times - it's puuuuuurty. I know the "sound" thing
and all, and when training a dog in a non-group setting, that sound
may be a factor, but I think it fails in the context of a group class.

So, I prefer the better fitting nylon slip collars, and very often,
pinch collars (small link unless it's a freaky dog, then they need
the milder medium link).

But I use e-collars too. With one of my dogs and with some clients.
For circumstances where a physical collar and leash is not the right
answer. I'm sure Lucy has no clue what THAT means!
--
Janet B
----------

HOWEDY janet,

Looks like you and your pals have gone totally INSANE again:

Janet B wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:44:14 -0500, Janet B
> <j...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com>, clicked their heels and said:
> > Since you quoted me repeatedly, where does it say I beat dogs, choke
> > dogs, scream at dogs, etc? Thanks for your clarification.
.
> responding to my own post, I had to go back and look at the original
> post, to remind myself what "we" are all accused of doing:
>
> "screaming, choking, shocking, pinching, beating the living crap
> out of your dogs"
>
> Scream? no
>
> Choke? no
>
> Shock? e-collars are a lot more sophisticated than that
>
> Pinch? if you want to classify a momentary discomfort by a prong
> collar, go ahead, but unless you have first hand experience with
> one, your opinion means nothing
>
> Beat the living crap out of? hardly - no hitting exists

"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
professora gingold.

"BethF" <b...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com>
wrote in message
news:v4r8kkf...@corp.supernews.com...

Kyle, FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
and i often call my little dog the turd, because
he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
matter of personality.

Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
step on him once. Seriously.

"Whatever Motivates The Dog, But I Daresay Most
Of The Dogs I Have In Classes Just Aren't That
Interested In Praise."

"BethF" <d...@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:uohnj3r...@corp.supernews.com...

Maybe that's what we should do - hold back the dobie
girl so that Izzy can put Simon in his place.

"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.

"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.

This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.

Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars

Sally Hennessey <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:b8m1dtsv6vuiblo63...@4ax.com...

Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.

The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.

What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.

I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.

I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.

Sally Hennessey

"Sally Hennessey" <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:54nuetsqgkhp26qqv...@4ax.com...

Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.

I'm starting to see some similarities here.

Sally Hennessey

"Janet Boss offered a pat on the back, commenting that
ultimately it wasn't Kate's decision. Whose was it? I asked.
Why, it was Teena's, averred Janet.

Janet was in an exculpatory frame of mind because she
contributed to this travesty herself, by advising Kate to
repeat the aggression trigger (grooming) on a daily basis.

It's all in the archives.

Now these two are spouting off about what kind of e-collars
they like to use on their dogs. Well, I've got an AC Delco
model that would be just right for Janet or Kate. BZZZZzzt!
I'd have to find it though, and I can't remember if I left
it in my underground bunker or the crawlspace under my
house," Charlie.

Here's janet's PARTNER:

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

sinofabitch writes:
> > What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
> > took posts from two different people,
> > took pieces of them out of context,

Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?

> > cobbled them together,

No. There was WON DIRECT QUOTE.

> > then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly."

> > and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.

> > Which is exactly what he did.

INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.

> > The actual quote is misleading

That so?

> > when taken out of context,

We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...

> > and Jerry's faked "quote"

The WON sinofabitch totally DENIES.

> > is downright meaningless.

Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.

Here's Jerry's version

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.

Here's yours:

"I dropped the leash, threw my
right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
grabbed her opposite foot with my
left hand, rolled her on her side,
leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
nipped her ear.
--Sara Sionnach

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

See?

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "CourteHOWES Canine."

"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?

When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time,
spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk
away. The dog won't be too thrilled with this but just
ignore him and continue your normal behavior."
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"CourteHOWES Canines"

"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:a3h5qn$mra$1...@uwm.edu...

> Di,
> I don't believe you mentioned a particular kind of
> training. If you are interested in training retrieval
> behavior than do consider our own Amy Dahl's:
> The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a Well-
> Mannered, Obedient and Enthusiastic Gun Dog
> in 10 Minutes a Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl

You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"

"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog
I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance
Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But
Destructive," "I don't see why anyone would want
to choke or beat a dog, or how any trainer could
possibly get a good working dog by making them
unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying
frosty dahl.

> just $17.95 at Amazon.com.
> (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the few
> regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
> ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
> --Marshall

amy lying frosty dahl continues:

"On the other extreme, the really ard dogs
we have trained require much more frequent
and heavy application of pressure (PAIN j.h.)
to get the job done,

This is continued resistance to your increasing
authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome

Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply